Here. (Update 10/30 - check back for posts made after 10/28. Some interesting additions, especially from "Fr. Martin", who I think might be the Martin Pryor who has chimed in here at OJC on Orthodoxy and the Western rite.
Prompting this is an exchange that happened (and may still be happening) today at Fr. Chadwick's blog. The chain of comments thus far. Pay special attention to those posted by Dale:
Philip says:
Having just come across your blogsite, I’ve been reading it through with great interest and fascination. I had been thinking of making a proper contribution to this western rite debate. However, having seen the vitriolic, abusive and definitely discourteous comments made by one or two people, notably Dale, I have no desire to indulge in public brawling, so I shall desist, and this will probably be my one and only contribution.
To help set the record straight, I am a member of the newly formed WR mission of the ROCOR in the British Isles. From what you have written I guess that most of you are our cousins across the pond. We are presently few in number, as the mission is in its infancy, but we are confident and full-hearted in pursuing the mission we have been given by our Metropolitan Hilarion, First Hierarch of ROCOR.
I am bemused by the frequent assertions in this blog of our imminent demise, also of the apparently crazy make-up of our forms of worship. There is also an unflattering reference with website photos to our priest, Fr. Thomas, to which I must take great exception.
Let me explain. We are all converts, most of my brethren were formally Roman Catholics, while I was an evangelical Anglican. Therefore we are all new to Orthodoxy, and are learning more of the Orthodox way of life and way of worship as we go along. We all came into Orthodoxy individually through our respective local churches, and only subsequently came together to form the WR mission. We have chosen to celebrate the Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Great as our main service, and this is one of those authorised by ROCOR, so we have absolutely no desire to invent some amalgam of our own concoction. This liturgy long predates the Conquest, which to those of us in these islands is a more meaningful record of the overthrow of the Orthodox episcopacy by the new centralist Norman papacy than the more conventional 1054 date for the Great Schism.
Regarding our reasons for being western rite, this is not primarily because any of us have some overwhelming desire to reject the eastern rites of our Church, but rather because, as a mission to the people of these isles, we believe that we should be seeking to take the Gospel to them and bring them into the faith and worship of the Church in their own culture which they can understand. Unlike the situation in North America, it is worth noting that the arrival of Christianity on these shores predates its arrival in Kiev by several centuries. So, while we remain eternally grateful to the Russian Church for hosting and supporting us, we are following in the footsteps of the saints and martyrs of the ancient Catholic Church of these isles, and we wish to follow them also in the forms of worship they used.
Furthermore, we see no fundamental distinction between the range of so-called eastern and western rites of worship of the Church, and we are equally at home worshipping with our eastern brethren in parishes where we individually live, as we are when we meet together in Oxford each month as a mission.
Finally, regarding the passing reference which has been made on this site to the Metropolitanate of Moscow and its diocese in this country. In fact, your correspondent ‘M’ is F. Michael Mansbridge-Wood, who was originally charged with leading the ROCOR mission, but was later stood down by Metropolitan Hilarion for various infractions. I understand that the new Moscow mission is part of the True Orthodox Church, which of course is not in communion with ROCOR or other parts of so-called World Orthodoxy (better known as the canonical Churches).
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Dale says:
Here is the web site of one of their so-called “western rite” parishes, they have dropped the use of “Western rite” and are advertizing that the priest of this parish along with other western rite clergy have been attending a liturgical workshop…not to learn to properly celebrate a western liturgy of course! Since that would appear to be a waste of time, but to learn to celebrate the Russian recession of the Greek liturgy: http://www.snmoc.org/
Please if anyone can find anything at all western rite about this parish, let me know.
Once gain, Philip, I do not have to make any of this up.
Not only is this rank proselytism, it is dishonest proselytism as well.
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Michael Frost says:
Philip, Here is a web site for a previously Continuing Anglican church in midwest USA that went ROCOR WR this past summer. Their priest, Fr. Victor Novak, proudly Anglican, wrote some interesting blog pieces discussing Anglicanism, Orthodoxy, and why he/they went Orthodox. You should check out his blog. There is a link on the parish web site.
http://www.holycrossomaha.net/
Dale, The Acworth Georgia SNMC web site says they are a home church. So whatever they are, they don’t appear to be very large. No idea if they are growing.
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Hello Michael, one should mention that Holy Cross is no longer listed on the Russian western rite (sic) website as one of their parishes; one can only wonder what has happened to them. Personally, I have no reason to disbelieve Fr Andre Philips about the expected direction that the western rite under the Russians is expected to take, let’s not forget both what happened in Italy, where it was demanded that they adopt the Greek rite, and in Czechoslovakia where the same demand was made. Unfortunately, the past history of the western rite has not been honest at all.
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Dale, I’m not exactly sure what is the current status of Holy Cross. All I can continue to do is pray for them and Fr. Victor. Being Antiochian WRV I’m not that up on ROCOR’s activity. I’m just glad my former long-term AWRV parish has been WR for nearly 25 years and I’d bet they’ll be WR 25 years hence.
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“However, having seen the vitriolic, abusive and definitely discourteous comments made by one or two people, notably Dale”…well then Philip, if your group wishes to avoid people who actually know that the western rite is from making comments, learn to celebrate it properly, instead of making it up as you go along. One can see by the bizarre pictures posted, by group, not by me, it is obvious that you are not celebrating the Roman rite, but the rather self-invented “Liturgy of St Gregory” of the ROCOR; what is strange is that the originally approved Roman rite of 1870 does not seem to be on offer.
Perhaps someone in your group can visit the local library to find out if they have Lamburn or O,Connor’s ritual notes…or do you plan on continuing to simply make it up as you go along and dumping in a lot of stuff from the Russian recession of the Greek rite when in doubt?
This is not vitriolic, it is simply an honest appraisal of your liturgical fun-and-games.
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Oh by the way, this is what a Russian priest in England has said about the western rite in your jurisdiction, honestly admitting that it is only temporary, one supposes for formerly pagan Anglicans who are so removed from Christianity that they may need a western rite before they are mature enough to become completely Russian, i.e. Orthodox:
“It may be that with the dissolution of Anglicanism in particular, there is now a place for a ‘Western rite’ in Orthodoxy. Despite all manner of disadvantages and difficulties, a ‘Western rite’ could perhaps fill a temporary pastoral need for some specific small groups.” http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/westrite.htm
Philip, this is what people in your own jurisdiction are saying, not me…
Philip, Well said. Wishing you and your mission all the best. The UK needs both evangelism and Orthodoxy. I pray your group maintains cordial relations with non-ROCOR Orthodoxy and continuing Anglicanism. My AWRV parish in USA uses the Anglican-derived Liturgy of St. Tikhon for Sundays and major feasts; the Roman-derived Liturgy of St. Gregory is used for low liturgy. Works for us. I do think Dale means well. He is right to be wary of prelates and clerics who oft seem inclined to use the WR as a temporary home before Byzantinizing them. That is something to be avoided at all costs. Either the WR is valid and equal or it is not. If it is, then it shouldn’t be unnecessarily easternized. Here in USA we keep waiting and watching to see what happens with ROCOR’s WR after all the turmoil and tumult earlier this year. I pray for their parishes, priests, and parishioners.